[Mishmash] (no subject)
Ingrid & Eric Holzman
ieholzman at verizon.net
Sun Feb 4 18:52:58 CST 2007
I guess we'll be agreeing to disagree. I don't think they were there. I think we used that as an excuse.
Ingrid
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Atkinson
To: Mishmash
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Mishmash] (no subject)
Well, Ingrid,
I am not convinced that those weapons were non-existent. We wasted so much time at the U.N. before going in there that they had plenty of time to put the weapons on trucks and ship them elsewhere. They could be stored in Syria or another nation for all we know.
Regards,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Ingrid & Eric Holzman
To: Mishmash
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Mishmash] (no subject)
I have heard reports about Al Quaida being involved but this is also from the government that said we have to invade Iraq to get rid of the "weapons of mass destruction" which were nonexistent. I, personally, have not read a real report and thus, I am skeptical. I don't rule it out, but due to the poor judgment (or as they like to claim: misinformation) on our government's part to invade a country and topple Hussein all for the WMD's, I like concrete, black-and-white proof.
With respect to private citizens and guns, you state that "the Constitution demands it." Actually, our constitution only states that we have a right to bear arms, it doesn't demand that we do. If it demanded this, then we'd all be toting guns and taking the law into our own hands. I, too, live in MD (near Baltimore), but most of my experiences with kids and guns was in L.A. There are a number of people in L.A. who have a gun for essentially the very reason you state, to protect themselves from theft, or in most cases there, rival gangs. The older sibling (high-school aged) happens to be running in a gang and the parent provides them with a gun (No joke!) and the younger sibling finds the gun. We had one 1st grader pull it out in show-and-tell. We had a 7th grader bring the gun to school and show it to the Asst. Principal. He was supposed to be initiated into the gang that night (daddy was the head, older brother was in jail doing time for shooting a rival gang member) and was scared. He figured if he showed it to the Asst. Principal he'd get help and that's exactly what he got. This kid was, hopefully, one of the lucky ones, but many aren't. I know people in bigger, dangerous cities want to carry a gun for protection, but how many times are they really using them for that? How often are they mugged? I'd love to see real data on this. I'd like to know how many of them have had to pull it out during a mugging. My gut tells me it's not often. Also, many should have to go through hours of firearms safety before being allowed to purchase one. I went through firearms safety in MN with my friends. Up in Northern MN, it was common for kids to go hunting with their parents, but they made it law that if you were going to shoot a shotgun, you had to get certified. It made many of us think twice when we fired those shotguns. The kickback hurts!
Ingrid
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Barth
To: Mishmash
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Mishmash] (no subject)
At 05:46 PM 2/4/2007, you wrote:
I agree with you, David. I have yet to see real proof that Bin Laden had anything to do with this. Just because Bush wants to tell us that Bin Laden and Hussein were behind it, doesn't make it true. Bin Laden and Hussein are/were horrible men, but I believe there are plenty of others out there hell bent on making the lives of U.S. citizens miserable. I'm sure that these two men weren't exactly sad to see the tragedy on our land, probably had big grins, but I think we haven't enough tangible evidence to say Bin Laden was behind it. Those involved may have been Laden wannabes, but that doesn't mean Bin Laden was the true mastermind.
I have seen little reason to doubt that Al Quaida was behind the 9/11 disaster; every report I've seen on the subject indicates that his organization, and he personally, expected and enjoyed it. Hussein, of course, had nothing to do with it. The blather about him being involved with Bin Laden was later shown to be nonsense; he was afraid of the religions radicals in al Quaida were likely to destabilize Hussein's large secular government. However, I believe the fact that he (Bin Laden) is on the loose today is largely because the U.S. administration was so hell-bent on invading Iraq that they failed to pay full attention to tracking down Bin Laden and company. Reports here indicate that much of the fighting done in Afghanistan was done by Afghanis, whose warlords had been handed large bundles of money by the CIA to fight for us. This minimized the need to commit U.S. troops, reduced U.S. casualties, minimized adverse public reaction to the war and left troops and funds free to fight Hussein. This included the "clean-up" phase where Bin Laden was on the run and hiding in caves in Bora Bora. Apparently nobody thought of the fact that Bin Laden had money of his own, and that the warlords might well refuse to stay bought even if they didn't naturally sympathize with a fellow Muslim.
As for our right to carry guns to protect ourselves from a rogue government, I'm not in favor of this at all.
Protecting ourselves from a rogue government is largely the stuff of David Koresh and other screwballs. Most of the rational arguments I've seen for private possession of guns hinge on two things: first, the Constitution demands it and second, crime against individuals has (reportedly -- I haven't checked the stats myself) has dropped in places where citizens are allowed to carry personal weapons. You never know whether the guy you're trying to mug is equipped to send you to the Promised Land. OTOH, possession of handguns is totally prohibited in Washington DC except for retired cops and active duty LEOs, and have you read the crime stats for DC lately? New York City also, while it had not banned handguns while I was growing up there (and Hugh can fill us in if this has changed) makes it very difficult to carry them. You need a permit that isn't easy to come by.
The other side of the coin is that, as you said, there is a great risk of guns falling into the wrong hands. We have occasional reports here (I live just outside DC in Maryland) of kids getting hold of the service weapons of cops who just happen to be their parents, and who should know better. Too many people trust their kids too much, and expect them to act like responsible grownups, even when their parents aren't displaying much in the way of maturity themselves.
Ingrid
----- Original Message -----
From: David Brown
To: 'Mishmash'
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Mishmash] (no subject)
I remain unconvinced that Bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11. There is compelling evidence that 9/11 was a home grown event designed to create an environment where the American people would accept an invasion of the Middle East.
Many years ago I reacted negatively to Hugh's comment that American citizens right to carry guns was needed to protect them from a rogue Government. I am much less convinced that I was right now.
David
From: Hugh Gigante
Always remember there never would have been a 9/11 or an Iraq if bubba had taken Bin Laden when offered.
Hugh
----------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Mishmash mailing list
Mishmash at mishmash.net
http://mishmash.net/mailman/listinfo/mishmash_mishmash.net
_______________________________________________
Mishmash mailing list
Mishmash at mishmash.net
http://mishmash.net/mailman/listinfo/mishmash_mishmash.net
Richard Barth *** W3HWN(at)ARRL.NET *** Silver Spring, MD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Mishmash mailing list
Mishmash at mishmash.net
http://mishmash.net/mailman/listinfo/mishmash_mishmash.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Mishmash mailing list
Mishmash at mishmash.net
http://mishmash.net/mailman/listinfo/mishmash_mishmash.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Mishmash mailing list
Mishmash at mishmash.net
http://mishmash.net/mailman/listinfo/mishmash_mishmash.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mishmash.net/pipermail/mishmash_mishmash.net/attachments/20070204/842e7fd7/attachment-0001.html
More information about the Mishmash
mailing list